Debate over charter schools touches nerves at meeting Written by DOUG DENISON The News Journal
DOVER – People on both sides of the ongoing debate about the role and governance of charter schools met Tuesday night to air their opinions before lawmakers eyeing reform.
Rep. Terry Schooley, who chairs the committee, laid strict ground rules for public testimony, but emotions ran high in discussing what one charter school administrator termed a “civil war” in Delaware’s education community.
Rep Schooley needs to step-down as Chair if the Delaware House Education Committee. The forum for this debate shouldn’t be at the hands of one of Governor Markell’s puppets who wants to stifle the truth!
“Charter schools do serve special-education students in numbers comparable to local districts. Charter schools do serve English-language learners. … Charter schools are a bargain for the amount of money they receive,” said Esther Jackson, dean of instruction at Newark Charter School
I cannot believe these administrators at Newark Charter School! Meece give it one black-eye and Ms. Jackson gives it another. Wasn’t Newark Charter given a tongue-lashing over school diversity by the Delaware Secretary of Education ? The only charter school required to formulate a diversity plan! Christina School District serves Special Ed population of 14.8% and Newark Charter 5.9% and Low income 59.8% for Christina and 15.8%. Wouldn’t it of made sense for Newark Charter School administration and staff to stay out of this debate? A bargain re: money?? But yet cry we can’t meet the needs because we don’t get equal funding? Sorry Newark Charter Parent , I know you’ve been through enough but come on, your administrators just don’t know when to stop!
“I think it’s time we look at reform for the Delaware charter school law,” said Audrey Erschen, principal of Providence Creek Academy in Clayton. “What started as an experiment is now 10,000 students strong.”
Wow even a charter school calling for reforming the Delaware charter school law! Why doesn’t Rep Schooley get this? Everybody including Governor Markell knows the law needs to be changes! Markell raised concerns about resegregation and, skimming and cream of students. Or was that just campaign talk.
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Now I see why all the Capitol school board candidates are so violently anti charter. Starts at the top with the superintendent of the district.
OK…opening myself up for the lashing.
I did not go to the meeting, so maybe something was missing from the article, but reading the article, and Mrs. Jacksons quote, I didn’t see that as crying about extra funding (although my I believe my child, who receives special ed services, should get the same state funding for such services as the district child-another point I’m sure will be debated). I read her as saying we DO have special ed kids and are able to meet their needs for less money. Maybe another article will come out with more details explaining what led up to this comment.
Kilroy, NCS has already started a group to help recruit families.
Based on Ms. Jackson’s quote of NCS serving special-needs students in ‘comparable numbers’ and as the numbers are far from comparable, I guess that it is good that Ms. Jackson doesn’t teach math at NCS.
I wasn’t at the meeting. Did she mention how they help kids who go to special ed rooms for extra help for years to help bring them up to where they should have been in the first place? Kids who are not on any stats as being special ed but receive some of those services anyway?
“Charter schools do serve English-language learners” Is this a joke?
Why would it be a joke? Based on your assumption that NO non-english speaking children attend any charter schools?
Kilroy nailed it. As Usual!
My assumption is that all students are learning English in school…
Of course they learn english in school. But, many children start school coming from non-english speaking households. I saw this in the district school and see it at the charter school. This can cause more difficulty for the children starting school and the parents ability to communicate with the school. I know several kids in my childs class in this situation, as well as neighbors. Many times, the younger child becomes somewhat of a “spokesperson” for the family.
My basic thought on this “Woe Is Us” cry by the Charter schools for equal or additional student funding: You can have the money when you have to abide by the same rules and regulations that govern money provided to traditional public schools.
Any action to obtain the money without subjecting the organization to the same rules & regs that govern the money when it’s sent to traditional schools is not called “equal funding”… It’s called a ‘SHAKEDOWN’ and that seemed nakedly clear from the condescending, arrogant, self-serving attitude and comments put forth by Kendall Massett and others at this hearing.
The most maddening thing I heard at this meeting is the expressed belief by some charter school teachers and advocates (e.g. one of the teachers from MOT charter) that charter schools and their teachers educate children for the intrinsic value/benefit. That they are paid less money, but do more, because they value and love teaching. The subtext of that is that those in traditional public education, like myself, are extrinsically-motivated money whores who are only in it for the personal benefits we can reap. It’s repugnant to hear that. It’s insulting, at the very least, and perpetuates a mentality that is cancerous to developing productive and collaborative relationships between charters and traditional public schools.
It really seems like every day I have to listen to charter school advocates tell me that my traditional public school is a complete failure, that I am a terrible teacher who isn’t in it for the kids, etc., etc., etc. Is that the truth? No. Is that what *all* charter school advocates believe? No. However, those who occupy the sensible middle-ground are often drowned-out and ignored by the looney fringe elements who believe that their way is the only way.
Wow even a charter school calling for reforming the Delaware charter school law!
Kilroy, when charter schools call for reform they mean they want capital funding. When I say charter reform, I mean stop the creaming and make them more inclusive.
I could not attend the meeting last night.
I agree the Charter law probably needs a few updates but the NCS bashing needs to stop. NCS perfectly serves the demographics of the families who apply. How many times do we have to go over this? You must apply to gain access to the great education at NCS and NCS is working on creating a group that will create this outreach program that will increase applications from demographics that are not close to those in CSD. Bottom line… you must apply and that means you must be an involved parent/family.
This is no longer about NCS (nor should it ever have been) but the Charter law.
Mike O, You can’t let this creaming/skimming go. If NCS is creaming/skimming by including mostly involved parents/families with the application, lottery and homework demands… then yes NCS is creaming/skimming. If you don’t mean that… please explain how this happens. Let it go bro… NCS is not skimming the top kids. Most of the kids come in at K and NCS has no way to determine who those top daycare kids are. JC!!!
@ddncs…. How’s that diversity outreach coming along?
As stated twice above already, NCS has already taken the first steps to create an outreach group. Istead of making any positive comment about that, people have to continue to make negative comments about the demographics and what they are right now at this minute. Why? Shouldn’t we be learning from the past and make corrections where needed? Debating about what NCS is right now, before they have even had one minute to start their changes in the right direction is pointless. All that these comments are doing is keeping both ‘sides’ in conflict instead of coming together and working together.
Mike, they have already started a group. What do you expect them to do, pull kids into the school in April? As you like to say ‘reading comprehension check’ it is written at least twice above they have already started a group
I don’t think Mike O was really looking for an answer to that question…I’m sure he has seen this answered before and seemed to ask the question tongue in cheek. I don’t think there is anything NCS can do to satisfy all; so it is best to focus on what we need to do in a positive way.
Mike, I was wondering if the school you choiced your kids into has an outreach program for families? If so, wonderful, maybe they could give NCS some ideas on how to implement that program. If not, some families might not reaize they have a choice and just think their kid is supposed to go to their feeder school.
“What do you expect them to do, pull kids into the school in April?”
Actually, Dickinson did just that last Sunday.
Well first of all, I thought it was still April
Second, I was mocking. I hope you are too.
One of the most audacious claims was by the Charter Network leader: (paraphrased) We pay our teachers 21% less traditional public schools and we are proud of it!
Can you imagine BRAGGING about paying nurses or day care providers or nuclear power plant operators or sanitation workers at such a deflated rate? What is wrong here? Do we not value our teachers enough to pay them a professional wage?
“Mike, I was wondering if the school you choiced your kids into has an outreach program for families?”
Doesn’t need one. It is 49% white and 45% low-income already. That is pretty much maximum diversity. It is MORE diverse that the community because it feeds some kids from Wilmington. My son is an honor student there and would be anywhere.
I was not mocking about the outreach program. If my memory serves (and it doesn’t always
) I don’t think I got anything in the mail about my choice options for my son. There was info. on the internet (not everyone has a computer) and a high school night at middle school. Not all families are able to go to school at night as they might have to work. Maybe something is mailed? might not be to me because I am not really part of the CSD anymore. But, shouldn’t they still give me my options because I live here? Seriously, if I was not happy with out school, I might be looking for other options.
While typing that it just hit me. CSD sends me nothing about Cambridge, nothing about the great things going on at NHS, Glasgow, or Christiana. NOt one bit of info. As a charter school parent, how would I ever think to send my kids to any of those schools? (totally not mocking) Dickinson sent me a brochure about their IB program and I’m not even in their district.
NM:
I know about the issues with non-english speaking families, but that is not what was stated by the Dean of Instruction at NCS. It is interesting.
DDNCS:
The statement of the Dean of Instruction at NCS (not the part that I refer to above) seems to indicate that NCS still does not believe it is serving a demographic group that does not match the demographics of the population it should be serving.
This disparity was underlined in the 2008 report by Michigan State U that labeled NCS as “seggregative high income” and by Sec. Lowery’s recommendation.
It is, at least it should be, troublesome that a top level administrator of NCS takes this stand, when the school is supposed to be taken measures to correct the problem.
How can an institution take appropriate measures to correct a problem it denies existing?
I do not trust the current NCS administration to make any significant changes to its admissions procedures, and given the lack of strong directives imposed by the SBE (that blamed the CDS for this problem) I doubt that 9 years from now we will have something other than a “seggregative high income” NCSHS.
Before I would be willing to consider stop bashing either NCS, DDOE, SBE or CDS I would like to see an honest effort from each one of these institutions to accept some responsibility for their actions.
At this point the CDS is at the bottom of the list, because they have less power and are more regulated than any of the other entities.
Doesn’t Christina send out a news letter to all residents? I know Red Clay and Brandywine send them out. If they do, then I’m sure they speak about the Cambridge program and Choice open houses.
Now here’s a problem that pencadermom hits upon… Most parents aren’t aware of school options until their first child is getting close to starting schools. If they don’t have friends/family with school age children then they’ve probably haven’t even given schools much thought. The exception to this is educationally informed parents, most of which come from a higher socioeconomic level – which means they will have resources and contacts to help guide them. Do not underestimate this advantage. It will decide who gets into a school and who doesn’t. It’s a major head start.
But, the majority of parents may not even realize there are options until their child begins school, and then it may be too late to choose a different school. And choice isn’t a simple process. It involves time and transportation. So it isn’t as easy as completing a simple application.
Pandora, NCS has a ‘high school night’ every fall. Lots of private schools, charter schools, magnet schools. Newark is there. If I remember right, Glasgow and Christiana high school were not there a few years ago when my older son was at NCS. I think Glasgow came this past fall, and maybe last year too. Someone can correct me, but I don’t think Christiana High comes, and I don’t think Glasgow used to come. Vo-tech comes every year.
I don’t think any of those schools send anything in the mail. ever.
Newarkmom, my point about charters including Newark crying for more / egual money is in respects to what she said “Charter schools are a bargain for the amount of money they receive,”, is do sell us charters are a $$$ bargain at the same time you’re (they) are complaining about funding. Yes I see the concern for funding and even suggest a formula for capital funding. The best think for Newark School to do is focus on plans ahead and not be making quotes in the public such as Mrs. Jackson. Mr. Meece though not intentionally threw gas on the fire when he put his editorial in the NJ.
“Kilroy, NCS has already started a group to help recruit families.”
Pencadermon
I am glad to see parents playing a major role in those efforts because its NCS parents and students who need to make others welcomed and wanted.
Pencadermom:
You make an excellent point.
I have defended here before that I think the state or another supervising institution (CSD, RCSD) should take over the outreach programs.
It should not be the job of the schools to do this (I like to think of schools as specializing in education and not in marketing and outreach) and there are clear economies of scale in outreach programs. It would not be difficult for the State or the District to give unbiased and thorough information to all families about all their school options including private and parochial schools (they decrease the burden on public resources) and organize school fairs (if that is not already done).
PM:
Interesting about NCS HS night. Glascow and Christina might seem themselves as the schools where the residual students will go to and do not even bother to try to attract others.
What a low level of self-esteem… That is sad and I hope it is changing.
Did anybody at yesterday’s meeting raise the issue that we should not be looking at Charter Law independently of any revisions to the regulations imposed on traditional public schools.
Shouldn’t we revise the all public education system instead of doing piecewise revision?
Is there any chance that the new Secretary of Education would be up for a question and asnswer meeting?
The high school nights was the first place we heard about the Cambridge program at NHS. Our kids are able to go in 7th & 8th grade to visit the high schools that participate. I’m not sure if this is offered at the district middle schools (I thought they were) but I can see another difficulty not being able to attend because it happens after school hours. I was also happy to see that NHS came to our school last month to do the schedules for the incoming freshman and talk about the extra curricular activies at Newark, as they have been doing for years. I don’t know if Glasgow or Christiana did the same.
I believe, kids visiting potential schools is called shadowing. Yet again, something you have to know exists before you can take advantage of it. Both my kids shadowed (followed an existing student for a day) when choosing their high school. My son shadowed for potential colleges.
And I agree that the State should put together a mailer/website outlining school options. It should be a one stop shopping experience with all pertinent info on every school.
It just goes to show, if parents want to be informed they have to read Kilroy’s Delaware!
Mike O, Charters should have capital funding when the playing field is level and there is a secure means to secure taxpayer’s investment in charter real-estate and my formula is being looked at. STOP trying to destroy charters schools as an option and start fighting for fair and equitable education within all choice options.
Pandora, some schools have stopped ‘shadowing’. Heard, just from another parent so who knows. They said they were told it was causing distractions during the school day. Newark, don’t quote me. I am not 100% sure that Christiana wasn’t at high school night this year. Either way, I know I don’t get any info in the mail from CSD about entering any of their schools or about any of their programs
Even at the HS level an outreach program is difficult, as newarkmom stated, it might be difficult for some parents to attend, although being at the school attended by their children after school hours (and regular work hours) might help most parents.
Even at this level there need to be more tools used in the process to make sure that the relevant information reaches families.
At the earlier stages, outreach programs are more difficult.
@Newark, agreed!! We need to review traditional public school laws as well not just the Charter law. If they want to change the 5 mile radius in the Charter law they need to make the same change for traditiaonl public schools.
“And I agree that the State should put together a mailer/website outlining school options. It should be a one stop shopping experience with all pertinent info on every school.”- great idea.
A mailer to all families with all info including a website address.
you can shadow college students? good to know! Just make sure it’s not the day of /or day after a big frat party.
Kilroy:
I agree and would add vouchers (I mean a carefully thought out voucher program) to the toolkit to increase students’ options.
‘Charters should have capital funding when the playing field is level”
Making the playing field level would be the end of charters as we know them. If charters want the same money then they need to face the same rules and the same challenges as other schools. No free passes on the taxpayer dime.
Mike O sounds like you are being sarcastic. I am not a community bulletin-board. Parents and the community need a place to bitch, debate and take a shit. I started out by trying to be an information center but realized Red Clay was programming me to pour my own Kool-Aid and their mixture. Markell see anyone and any group not on board with his vision as a naysayer and keep the blinders on. Positive change cannot occur unless there is debate. Delaware has gone beyond healthy debate because the power with $$$ is trying to rewire parents’ brain to think the business round table has all the answer. In the middle of all out debates is the truth and food for expansion of our views. Others might take issue with how I throw the raw meat out here but sometimes we don’t get the truth until raw emotion are revealed.
Mike
It can also be the reverse, we can extend Charter flexibility to TPSs or meet somewhere in the middle.
Wasn’t at the meeting do didn’t hear the comments about teacher pay but here’s the reality- without capital funding charters must pay capital expenses out of operating funds which means there is less money for everything else including salaries. I can’t tell if the issue is what was said or HOW it was said but the impact if using operating funds for capital expenses is very real.
vouchers, regardless of how carefully thought out, are AWFUL public policy.
Really hate to dissapoint the NCS haters (Mike O. please listen) NCS has started the outreach program. I am involved so everyone can stop with the bashing of the NCS administrators because you say it wont happen).
As a parent at NCS and as someone who’s special ed children have greatly benefitted from the school, I am so tired of hearing everything negative about the school. They aren’t going away, they will do what they need to do in order to make the DOE happy. Doesn’t anyone think that it is off that Lillian Lowery made her suggestions (and made it clear there didn’t need to be a plan in place before the expansion was approved) and within days made her announcement she was leaving?? She knew that NCS had not violated any laws/rules. And she knew she’s was getting out! Are the Charter laws perfect?? No- I think that is a basic knowledge. The state needs to work on them. I think it is so strange that everyone blast NCS and accuses them of creaming. Look at CSW- they only want the cream of the crop. Is that not skimming and hurting the other schools in the county?? Also does anyone find it weird that a school based on academics is kicking butt in most of their sports?? Growing up I knew of some jocks that were good students but to have a school full of very intelligent and athletic kids? How’s that??
Newark- I agree that an effort should be made to meet somewhere in the middle. Our children deserve the best. They are our future and unless they are properly educated and to their fullest potential we are headed for disaster.
I think regardless of the outcome of NCS outreach program there will always be those against it. If not for it’s poverty level or diversity I’m sure it will be something else. The conversations on these boards (DDC as an example) have proven that. You can’t please everyone all the time and you never will.
Thank you Kilroy for giving us a place to voice our diverse opinions, bitch and hopefully for legislatures to lurk and see what the “real” people are saying.
Don’t mischaracterize criticism as “hating.” If you want to play the mischaracterization game, just let me know; I can play that game too.
Just review this thread and see how I started with an observation about charter reform, which didn’t even mention NCS, and then had to respond to increasingly vitriolic comments from the usual NCS supporters showing the decorum of a pack of wild dingoes.
The fact is NCS ends up with unnaturally low rates of poverty and diversity. Nobody quite knows how this is accomplished, but it is undeniable. NCS is the only school I know of that had to be ordered to increase its diversity.
How about this for an outreach approach:
Rather than reach out to enroll special ed students, reach out to enroll CHILDREN of PARENTS who had special education needs when they were in school. My conjecture is that this is an underserved population.
@Proud
The outreach plan, as defined by Dr. Lowery’s conditions, REQUIRES DOE approval. Has that happened? Is the outreach plan available for public review? Has the State Board approved it? Does it satisfy the Secretary’s sensibilities? If so, has she sent an approval letter to confirm this with the NCS BOD or school leader?
So what is the plan….or easier asked, what is your involvement in what your announce as “NCS has started the outreach program”
Thank you.
@John… is your expectations really that this plan be completely done and available to the public within this short period of time? Was there some 30 day time limit I didn’t see? Would CSD move this fast? I would have no such expectations of CSD, and would give them more time than this to make sure it is handled properly.
NCS has begun to assemble parent volunteers, to work with the school to begin such a program. This is not the big answer you are looking for, but I think it is a positive start.
NM:
John’s response was to ProudMama who presented it as a done deal. John’s point is that it is not a done deal, it is my understanding that he was not expecting it to be a done deal.
PBaumbach:
I disagree.
I do not see a reason for public provision of education unless there is a clear failure from the private sector to provide the desired type of education.
Public funding of education (which should be means-tested in my opinion) would meet students’ needs much more effectively.
thanks, Newark.
I don’t read it as a “done deal”, but that’s not the important thing. For that to be the part of the post that got picked on seems argument just for the sake of argument to me. If we all can’t even agree that this first step to assemble an outreach committee, involving parents, is a positive move, than we have no chance in ever reconciling CSD with NCS. Let’s hold the vitrol of the outreach effort for when it is actually implemented.
I agree but I am still sceptical about the outreach program. The scepticism has nothing to do with the willingness and goodwill of NCS parents. NCS’s administration has shown to have other interests (their inaction in face of the “segregative high income” label shows it) and are probably not in a rush to see the outreach program succeed.
@NewarkMom
That’s my point….what are they working on if not an approved plan….and is that a good idea seeing as what they are doing may be rejected by the Secretary….just pointing out the horse and carriage thing.
No CSD would not move that fast, hopefully because the Secretary’s demands require an approval that likely hasn’t been secured.
Unless @proud was breaking news….which it sort of seemed like she was doing by asking everyone to back off and go away like this: I am involved so everyone can stop with the bashing of the NCS administrators because you say it wont happen).
@John..I understand what you are saying, and I’m sure the admin knows the order of things so that any plan is approved before proceeding. Right now, they are just gathering parent volunteers. I do appreciate your input, especially since you are a CSD board member who voluntarily lends your voice to this discussion, and can be a voice to help mend the opposing sides in the district (easy job, right?
)
@Newark, I hope NCS is able to come up with an outreach program that makes you a little less skeptical, and earns a little respect for the effort. Not for the naysayers, but ultimately to benefit the community.
Mr. Young and newark- maybe you should reread the post. It states NCS has “started” working on the outreach plan. No where in my post does it say it is done. I am sure that NCS will follow what the DOE is requesting. How can a plan be finalized and approved it has just been started? Your statement does not even make sense! Talk about cart before the horse!
NCS parents have been pushed into a corner and we feel the need to defend our school. Probably similar to your need to defend CSD.
My post never said “breaking news” and neither did Pencadermom’s. My post was in ref. to posts that stated that NCS would not do anything to make the changes asked by the board. My post also never said back off and go away. It seems like there are so many people that are hoping that it fails so they can continue the bashing. Regardless of what is actually written I guess people will interpret it to say what they want to hear.
I have confidencce that NCS will (when ready) submit a program that the board will be happy with and the “majority” of the people will be happy with. Of course, you can’t please everyone!!!
NM:
So do I.
John, The first step would be to get people together to work ON the plan. You can’t approve a plan until you have the plan put together. geez.. can you find something, anything positive about this?
And John, when reading all of the comments above did you notice any addressing our concern for charter parents in regard to CSD schools? I have had one child (and now another for this upcoming school year) leave Newark Charter without ever getting anything in the mail regarding what options we would have for high school in CSD. Do you know if Glasgow and Christiana High go to ‘high school night’ at NCS to inform parents of choices and programs in those schools? (as I said above I think they didn’t do it just a few years ago, but might now??) And flyers for families who aren’t able to attend ‘high school nights’? Or families in schools who don’t have ‘high school nights’?
ha I think we were all typing at the same time.
I actually think NCS will handle outreach well, once they get clear direction from the state. I’m also not expecting huge changes the first year.
Mike O- Unfortunately, the lottery was done for the 2012/13 school year last Nov or Dec. I don’t know what the numbers will show for that but I am confident that now there is a FRL program that incomes will be reported and that will correctly show the poverty level at the school.
In my prepared comments read last night, I noted that NCS was singled out for problems likely not unique to them, but due to problems likely common to many of DE’s charter schools, problems that the current law, regulations, and DOE’s lax enforcement permit/perpetuate.
NCS were singled out simply since ‘their turn was up’ for inspection; actually their turn came up sooner due to their expansion request.
Planning stage John… settle down
John, NCS is working on their outreach plan and then will submit for approval when ready. CSD doesn’t need an outreach program but you need a plan to improve the failing schools which is just as important, if not more, then the NCS program. What is CSD’s plan to improve? As a Board member I believe your time is better spent on fixing CSD 1st.
My wife is involved as well. Seems NCS should be applauded for the speed of their response to the Secretary’s recommendations.
Great questions DDNCS- they have been asked before but I don’t think ever answered.
Just gaining clarification for sure. original post by @proud was sufficiently vague. All efforts to improve CSD are indeed the correct calling. Our new Superintendent will certainly be putting forth a plan soon (he takes over 7/1/12).
@Newark,
Re: your post early in the day. Actually, Meece spoke out in favor of giving traditional public schools more freedom with their funds. He listed several reforms that traditional school districts have been pushing and said he supported them. Won’t see that in TNJ or kilroy.
@Kilroy,
Based on your blog, because Lowery determined that NCS wasn’t diverse – it is fact? Funny, people even question the Supreme Court’s decisions all the time. It is possible for NCS to follow the directive without believing it. I question the fact that she simply dismissed private school and home school students from the total population. The population should include all students entitled to a public education, not just those who selected them.
I know it is not a popular opinion on this site but it seems that would be the more accurate representation of the demographics. If NCS was not similar to that population, it might indicate a problem. My hunch is that those two categories would be pretty close.
Guest:
That is a very good point. However I know that someone associated with NCS attempted to explain the disparity taking that into account. From what I heard he found that the fraction of families homeschooling their kids or sending them to private school would have to be extremely large to explain the disparities and proceeded to follow another approach.
Moreover, the fact that NCS attracts students that would otherwise go to private schools while low-income students are left out might not be something that an equitative public policy should take into consideration as an argument to justify the disparity.
Kilroy, a quick question – wasn’t there a charter from Sussex county (Sussex Academy?) that was also seeking to expand to a high school at the April 19 meeting? I believe they were approved. Was there any discussion of the diversity there or of the status of low-income applicants? I’m wondering if DOE’s position on NCS is also applicable to other charter. Does a diverse population matter everywhere?
Mr. Young- what are the efforts CSD is putting forth? If you know the new super has a plan what is it?? Talk about sufficiently vague. Fair is fair – not really sure why you feel the need to focus on something I commented on when others have made similar comments.
You obviously feel strongly about CSD and want to improve it- of course that is my assumption since you are on the board. I respect the fact that you volunteer your time in that capacity. I have two sepcial needs kids at NCS. They are well beyond what the special ed teachers at WP and Brader ever said they would be. I feel very strongly about the education my kids are getting and NCS. The staff and administrators have been wonderful to my kids and I truly feel that they want what is best for them and they are willing to do what is necessary to make it happen. I have NEVER felt that about any other school. Of course that is my personal experience. I know that I can’t make everyone understand that or even beleive it. I know that NCS works- I want all parents to feel the same as I do about their school- regardless of the school, district or state you’re in. Yes- I know that is a pipe dream but it’s worth striving for.
The most eye-opening part of the meeting for me was the whistle-blowing done by the two young charter school teachers. Their descriptions of their charter schools running with NO oversight, NO compliance with their charters, and NO accountability was shocking. I commend them for coming forward.
If these dysfunctional charter schools have no oversight how can we expect anyone from DOE to oversee the seemingly non-dysfunctional charter schools?
Beth,
I wonder what happened to those two teachers the next day at school?
Beth you know who they are and the new charter school queen dimed them out! Changes are coming !
Did DOE present this at the meeting regarding charter evaluation? http://www.doe.k12.de.us/news/de/DE_Spring2012_email.pdf
Our state has everything to gain financially by supporting new charter schools on a grand scale. You heard it at the meeting: How much money can the state save by hiring teachers at 21% less pay? Millions.
Let’s watch the exodus of teachers with masters degrees who may love teaching but also have families, student loans, and mortgages.
John, I too wondered what those teachers faced the next day. Even not knowing the whole story, I thought they were brave.
I’m thinking it would be hard to get substitutes to take their places.
@ Beth – Citizens in all sectors/industries in the state have been hit hard by the current economic conditions and as a result income tax revenues are down. Why exactly wouldn’t the state look at ways to reduce cost in all areas including the education system? Folks in banking, finance, accounting, manufacturing, and services are all being forced to take pay cuts just to keep their jobs and you think teachers should be immune to this reality?
Teachers are not immune. They, along with all state emplyees, took a pay cut. Let’s put an actual comparison of salaries up.
@Beth – what purpose would a salary comparison serve? Comparing the salary of a state employee to the salary of a person working for a for-profit industry is an apples to oranges comparison. My point was it was not out of bounds to explore ways to get costs out of the system. This is a reality that anyone working in corporate America faces everyday. Why should it be different for anybody else?
Then let us announce that this is part of the agenda.
Beth:
Could you please elaborate? Who is paying teachers 21% less? 21% less than what?
The De Charter School Network leader proudly announced at the public hearing that De charter school teachers earn 21% less than traditional public school teachers.
and that they love this?
Yes. The De Charter Network loves this.
Patriot, the “not for profit” state still needs professionals: engineers, nurses, lawyers, accountants, financiers, doctors, biologists, computer programmers, and teachers. Should we pay these professionals less than a living wage/the private sector rate? If we do pay significantly less, won’t we be sacrificing quality?
I’ve seen the salary scales when state job openings are posted. They are not even comparable to equivalent positions in the private sector. However, the benefits given to state employees are typically better as well as the quality of life. I would tell you the state is targeting a different group than the private sector as evidenced by the salary packages being offered. Teachers at charter schools typically don’t make as much as their counterparts in TPS but I’m told the job satisfaction they enjoy is worth the delta in pay to them. Seems similar to state versus private sector to me.
@Beth.. I was not at the meeting, so I can’t comment on the context or tone of the teachers salary scale. I do know at NCS, we have many long time teachers, who left the district for their own personal reasons. They willingly accepted the salary offered, and if they took a pay cut (I don’t really know) they did so voluntarily, and again, for their own reasons. Do you know the percentage of deduction for union dues?
Compensation may be in the eye of the beholder. I probably could have left my job for more money back when the economy was strong, but I love the working environment and have been lucky to have flexiblility as a working mother. You cannot put a price on that value. I also work in an industry that faced extinction a few years’ ago, so pay raises have not been a reality for us for a long time….we are just happy to have our jobs.
I think the voluntary pay cut taken by teachers that accepted the charter positions speaks positively for the other components of the job conditions offered by those schools.
I know some young qualified teachers that would like to teach at NSC because of the environment, the focus on teaching at the school,… Most people are willing to take a job cut to work in an environment that makes them happier, or if you want to look at it the reverse way, you have to pay a premium to attract people to a worst job.
The traditional LIFO approach for teachers lay-off and corresponding promotion policies also increases the uncertainty of jobs in TPSs for qualified young people.
This salary disparity is for me another sign that TPSs need urgent revisions in their policies together with less regulations.
Um, union dues are like $50 a month. This conversation reminds me of olden times when the school marm couldn’t ‘t be married. Or the 50′s when teachers were women whose husbands worked in “real ” jobs. Or the 80′s when two incomes actually were enough to live on. Have you any idea how many extra hours teachers put in beyond their contractual obligation? Union members or not, teachers work on average 16 unpaid hours a week.
@Beth…I’m not really following your point on teachers pay, how does this remind you of the 1950′s? We all know that teachers are notoriously underpaid for the responsibility that is placed on them. No argument. The fact that charter teachers make less money is the choice of that person, many willingly left district schools for a charter job, and I’m pretty sure they were told their pay when they did. For some people, a good working environment is worth the cut in pay. For a lot of young teachers, district jobs are hard to get, this could also be a chance for a teaching job. I asked the union dues question, because charter teachers do not have that deduction from their pay in comparison to district teachers.
I like to that young teachers out of school might consider as a vocation being able to make a difference in the lives of less fortunate students as well as teaching advantaged students.
(ok….what does that have to do with the 1950′s?) I would like to think a young teacher would want to make difference in the life of any child who needs them as well. I wish there was more of an incentive for teachers to take a job in a school with more challenges and needs, but I think that those schools need the more experienced teachers. (just my opinion)
That is true, Newarkmom. But new teachers can bring energy and innovation and are a great compliment to older teachers’ experience! Both are needed and need to be encouraged we agree on a lot.
@Beth,
I was at the meeting and the comments were not stated in the manner you or Mr. Young are indicating. The point of the comment was that funding is so much lower when student funding also pays for buildings that teachers are paid 21% less. It was not a point of pride except in the fact that many are still successful.
Regarding those two teachers, I’m willing to bet that they were already planning on leaving or have not been renewed. By the way, they both teach at the only charter that is unionized.
@Guest I stated nothing about how the comments were stated, I merely wondered how they may have been treated the next day at work.Please reread my comments in the thread.
I stand by my interpretation of how the comments were made.
@John,
“and that they love this?”
I was referring to this comment about the lower pay. That was a sarcastic reply to the different pay for charter teachers. Did I misinterpret the meaning of this?
@Beth,
As a dedicated dsea member I would expect nothing less. That meeting consisted of the dsea president repeating that the union does not oppose charters followed by all the problems the union has with charters. The real attacks came from the dsea minions at the local level in the districts.
Are you using my alleged union affiliation to attack my comments? Why not use evidence? Its generally considered a more effective debate strategy.
@Guest my comment was only a statement about the recounting of the DE Charter Networks declaration of less pay. It made me muse about how the teachers getting less pay may feel. Nothing more.
still would love to know hoe the next day went for them at the school.
@Beth,
I am simply stating my interpretation of your comments (your union membership leads you to follow the union positions). If you can make your interpretation of the speakers at the meeting, I should be allowed to do the same with your comments. If you expect me to use evidence, please do the same in supporting your interpretation of those speakers. Maybe you could find one direct quote from a charter supporter at the meeting that says lower pay was a good thing. Fair is fair.
@John,
My apologies for my misinterpretation. That post was sufficiently vague to allow for many interpretations.
I guess this is why they need cops at CSD High Schools. What happens now to these kids? Do they just come back in a week or 2?
Two high school students charged after fight allegedly leads to trooper’s injury
http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20120505/NEWS01/120505019/Two-high-school-students-charged-after-fight-allegedly-leads-trooper-s-injury?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CHome&nclick_check=1
Guest, my opinions are based on 40 years experience in the schools at all levels, preschool to post -21. I don’t just go along with any political or union line.
DDNCS, that really is up to the state. That is one reason why the charter law discussion is good : perhaps it will lead to other law reforms and positive plans tor all of our children (even the “bad ” ones!)
@Beth,
What is your point? I have 25 years experience working with children through high school. Those charter school supporters you “quote” (more like paraphrase and interpret or misinterpret) have a number of years as well.
I’m sorry but it seems that you feel it is OK to interpret the opinions of others and stand by it but it crosses a line when someone interprets your intentions. If you want to match fact for fact, I will be glad to use evidence. If not, I stand by my opinion of your comments. Can I say that I base that opinion on my years of experience including as a dsea member?
By the way, Newark can expel students – Christina has expelled students for years. It is not up to the state.
The comments made at the May 2nd meeting are public record.
Then use them. You haven’t quoted a single person. Why paraphrase and put a spin on it? Why criticize someone who does the same?
Okay…call me old fashion but a couple things strike me as peculiar in the Glasgow arrest:
A) Having a police officer in the school.
B) Having a police officer making an arrest in the school in front of students (since the boyfriend intervened, I’m assuming this happened in front of everyone).
C) Having a police officer stun gun a student in the school in front of students.
So we’re comfortable with this behavior by all involved in a school? If not, why are we not pushing for laws that make it more unlikely it will happen? Or, is this just part of the TPS compact? (i.e. we teach ALL kids) and the school should not be able to kick these kids out of the school? Really?
Patriot, I met Val Harris. She is passionate about kids and seems to have a great understanding (because it’s what she does) on how to work with parents, mentoring them on how to help their own kids. Isn’t that what everyone comes back to, the parents doing THEIR job? She has the same kinds of thoughts I do, and I’m sure you too, on raising the standards in the schools.
Pencadermon, I believe that and it obvious Ms. Harris is connected and serves the community well. However, even she can see those flyers are over the top putting her in a position to deliver if elected. She needed to tell them please STOP and she needed to come out more visible to the voters.